Is Trinity Really Not in the Bible?
1. Virochna Asura
The Christian trinity is irrational. It is that way because it is doctrine that was hammered out by different committees over a long time. It is not in the Bible and people with different views of the trinity, and there were many before they were made illegal, would all find verses to support them. The Trimurti is an artificial creation to reconcile different devotional paths.Alok Hemrom
//The Christian trinity is irrational. //
I hope you are well aware of what "Christian trinity" is. Let me know from your own words. (So that, I can be assured that you are not misrepresenting the trinitarian theology). And then, also tell me those major points (according to you) which seems to make the *doctrine of trinity* illogical/irrational .
//It is that way because it is doctrine that was hammered out by different committees over a long time.//
Who are these different committees, any references/evidence?
And also mention on which grounds they rejected/hammered out trinity.
//It is not in the Bible//
Yes, it is.
//and people with different views of the trinity, and there were many before they were made illegal, would all find verses to support them.//
In my understanding, there is only one view of trinity. Let, me know those "different" views of trinity which you are talking about. What do you mean by "they were made illegal" and who made that illegal.
//The Trimurti is an artificial creation to reconcile different devotional paths.//
I will be reminding your own words (the above one) while we further discuss trinity. Btw Trinity is the TRUTH of the bible and trinity is not the same as Trimurti. I hope, you also agree with the latter part.
2.Virochna Asura
Alok Hemrom "I hope you are well aware of what "Christian trinity" is." LOL! Well, a bold one has shown up!"//It is not in the Bible// Yes, it is." Where is the doctrine of the trinity taught in the Bible? Strange you didn't quote it. Alok Hemrom "In my understanding, there is only one view of trinity." In the West, the creed says that the holy spirit proceeds from the father and the son (filioque) while in the eastern churches the holy spirit proceeds directly from the father. Right there, in our time, you have two versions. Alok Hemrom "Who are these different committees, any references/evidence?" https://plato.stanford.edu/
Alok Hemrom "What do you mean by "they were made illegal" and who made that illegal." It was the law under the Emperor Theodosius that all Roman citizens were required to follow the state version of Christian dogmas alone.
"It is our desire that all the various nation which are subject to our clemency and moderation, should continue to the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one deity of the father, Son and Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since in out judgment they are foolish madmen, we decree that the shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give their conventicles the name of churches. They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of divine condemnation an the second the punishment of out authority, in accordance with the will of heaven shall decide to inflict." Theodosian Code XVI.1.2
Alok Hemrom
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My response is going to be in three parts:
Part 1: Why there is the doctrine of TRINITY in the bible?
Part 2: A short response to your response to me.
Part 3: A short response to the article you shared.
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PART 1: WHY THERE IS THE DOCTRINE OF TRINITY IN THE BIBLE?
(a). Let's get into the definition first.
Technically, God of the Bible eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God.
In other words, God is one in being/existence and three in persons. In more simple words, three persons in one God.
Note that we Christians are not claiming: There is one God and there are three Gods or God is one person and God is three persons. Because that would be a contradiction and hence illogical and irrational. What we are claiming is this : God is One Being and God is three persons.
Me to God: What are you?
God: I am God.
Me: Who are you?
God: I am YHWH the ONE TRUE GOD and is identified as three distinct persons - Father, Son And Holy Spirit.
Now, you can also say: HEY, YOU ARE SAYING GOD IS ONE AND IN THAT ONE GOD THERE ARE THREE DISTINCT PERSONS WHO ARE ALSO FULLY GOD (AND NOT 1/3 OF GOD) THEN WHY NOT COUNT THEM AS THREE GODS (TRITHEISM AND NOT TRINITY/TRIUNITY) AND YET YOU MAINTAIN THAT THERE IS ONE GOD. THAT'S IRRATIONAL HUH...
Now, truly speaking, its difficult to digest such doctrine of the nature of God for our finite minds. Just because something is difficult to comprehend doesn't necessarily imply or reduce down it to be irrational and illogical.
Take the example of LIGHT. It is both wave and particle. This fact is well established through the various experiments. (Refer https://global.canon/en/
Just because its difficult to comprehend that light is both a particle and a wave, we do not reject this truth or call it irrational (by saying that how can Light be both a particle and a wave rather, we just accept it on the basis of verified experiments), in the similar fashion, just because its difficult to comprehend Trinity, we shouldn't dismiss this truth rather we just accept it on the basis of the testimony of bible authors (which I will be proving right now).
(b). Why there is Trinity like concept in the Bible?
(Before I give my explanation, I want to make the assumption 'for the sake of the argument' that the whole bible is inspired by God and hence inerrant and authoritative in its teachings lest you come up saying hey, this gospel is forged or those letters are forged or your entire bible has been changed/corrupted blah blah.. and so I am not going to accept those bible verses etc etc. because that is not the issue of the discussion here).
The doctrine of Trinity stands upon the following non - deniable facts :-
When I say NON - DENIABLE then I do mean it.
1. Plurality in God i.e God is three persons (which are distinct from each other).
2. Each person is fully God.
3. There is one God.
The references will be from both the O.T and N.T.
3.1
Fact 1:- Where does the bible indicate the plurality of God? Where does the bible gives an indication of *three* persons in the Godhead? Which are those verses which clearly show that these persons are distinct?
(i) Plurality in God
O.T verses:-
● Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let *us* make mankind in our image, in our likeness, ...."
Before you come up with objections like: (1) The text is using the "plural of majesty"; and (2) the text is including angels as co-creators with God, please watch this video https://youtu.be/nCMHAdZBJcM
● Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of *us*, knowing good and evil....”
● Genesis 11:6-7
The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let *us* go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
● Isaiah 6:8
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall *I* send? And who will go for *us* ?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
//Note the combination of singular, *I* and plural, *us* in the same sentence in this verse.
● Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah — from the LORD out of the heavens.
//Two LORDS?
● Psalms 110:1
Of David. A psalm. The *LORD* says to *my lord* : “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”
//Again Two LORDS??
● Malachi 3:1
“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly *the Lord you are seeking* will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the *LORD Almighty*.
//Now, again Two LORDS???
There are many more verses and many more things to explain under this section but for keeping the comment short, I'm leaving those.
3.2
(ii) Three Persons in God
N.T verses
● John 16:15
All that belongs to the *Father* is *mine*. That is why *I* said the *Spirit* will receive from *me* what *he* will make known to you.”
*Father* - God the Father
*mine* , *I*, *me* - Jesus Christ
*Spirit*, *he* - God the Holy Spirit
● Luke 2:26
It had been revealed to him by the *Holy Spirit* that he would not die before he had seen the *Lord’s* *Messiah*.
*Lord's* - God the Father
*Messiah* - Jesus Christ
*Holy Spirit* - God the Holy Spirit
● Acts 2:33
Exalted to the right hand of *God*, *he* has received from the *Father* the promised *Holy Spirit* and has poured out what you now see and hear.
*God*, *Father* - God the Father
*he* - Jesus Christ
*Holy Spirit* - God the Holy Spirit
● Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the *Holy Spirit*, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of *God*, and *Jesus* standing at the right hand of *God*.
*God* - God the Father
*Jesus* - God the Son
*Holy Spirit* - God the Holy Spirit
● Galatians 4:6
Because you are *his* sons, *God* sent the *Spirit* of *his* *Son* into our hearts, the *Spirit* who calls out, “Abba, *Father*.”
*his*, *God*, *Father* - God the Father
*Son* - Jesus Christ
*Spirit* - God the Holy Spirit
● Ephesians 2:18
For through *him* we both have access to the *Father* by one *Spirit*.
*Father* - God the Father
*him* - Jesus Christ
*Spirit* - God the Holy Spirit
● Titus 3:6
*whom* *he* poured out on us generously through *Jesus Christ* our Savior,
*he* - God the Father
*Jesus Christ* - God the Son
*whom* - God the Holy Spirit
● 1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of *God the Father*, through the sanctifying work of the *Spirit*, to be obedient to *Jesus Christ* and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
*God the Father*
*Jesus Christ*
*Spirit*
3.3
More Explicit Ones
● Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of *the Father* and of *the Son* and of *the Holy Spirit*
● 2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the *Lord Jesus Christ*, and the love of *God*, and the fellowship of *the Holy Spirit* be with you all.
Have you noticed one thing. All the three persons are in just one verse in the above verses. What if I start also quoting other portions of the scriptures where three persons are clearly mentioned in the consecutive verses, then the list would be twice longer sir. So, I am leaving those.
The above verses also clearly indicate that those three persons are distinct to each other otherwise it would not make any sense if we say that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not distinct.
In the O.T, there is a Story of Gideon (Judges 6,7,8).
If you carefully read the Story in chapter 6, you will find all the three persons.
->God the Father (as YHWH/LORD) in verses 8, 23, 25, 27
->God the Son (as Angle of YHWH/LORD) in verses 11 to 21. Surprisingly, in verses 14 to 18, Angle of YHWH starts speaking as YHWH.
For more info, check this debate video on the Topic "Is Jesus Christ, the Angle of the LORD/YHWH. " https://youtu.be/VTiIwy1rFew
You can also check this short article https://www.gotquestions.org/
->God the Holy Spirit in verse 34.
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(iii) Distinctness of each person.
N.T
Matthew 3:16,17
As soon as *Jesus* was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the *Spirit of God* descending like a dove and alighting on him.
And a voice from heaven said, “This is *my* Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
//Here, clearly God the Father who is in heaven is saying from the heaven. God the Son is taking Baptism. God the Holy Spirit is descending upon Jesus. They are distinct from each other.
O.T
● Genesis 16:11
The *angel of the LORD* also said to her: “You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the *LORD* has heard of your misery.
//Angle of the LORD means who is sent as a messenger from the LORD and hence is distinct from the LORD who sent him.
But surprisingly two verses further, angle of the LORD is called LORD (as well as GOD)
So we have again two LORDS..(One is simply LORD or God the Father and another one is Angle of the LORD who is also a LORD or God the Son who is usually sent as a messenger of God the Father in the form of Angle of the LORD.)
Genesis 16:13
She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”
● Isaiah 48:16
“Come near me and listen to this: “From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there.” And now the LORD God has sent me, and his Spirit.
//Here the Spirit of the Lord, like the servant of the Lord, has been “sent” by the Lord GOD
on a particular mission. The parallel between the two objects of sending (“me” and “his Spirit”) would be consistent with seeing them both as distinct persons.
Also check this
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FACT 2 :- Where does scriptures indicate Father is God, Son is God and Holy Spirit is God ??
Father is God
Isaiah 63:16
But you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; *you, LORD, are our Father*, our Redeemer from of old is your name.
John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him *God the Father* has placed his seal of approval.”
Son is God
John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Hebrews 1:8
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Holy Spirit is God
1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you know that *you yourselves are God’s temple* and that *God’s Spirit dwells in you*?
Acts 5:3-4
Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that *you have lied to the Holy Spirit* and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? *You have not lied just to human beings but to God*.”
Note one thing:- Holy Spirit is not power/force but is a person. https://www.gotquestions.org/
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FACT 3 :- There is One God.
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Isaiah 45:22
“Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
Final Thoughts
Now, with those bunch of verses quoted,
1. Is it possible to conclude from the Bible that God is only one person who exhibits himself sometimes as Father, sometimes as Son and sometimes as Holy Spirit?
-> No, it's not possible. Because it would left many bible verses meaningless. Some examples
• John 8:16
But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.
• John 16:32
“A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
And there are tons of verses which I could quote which would be meaningless if we deny the distinction between three persons.
2. Will it be biblical to say that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are not only three different persons but also three different Gods ie Polytheism or more specifically Tritheism?
-> No, because it denies the explicit fact of the bible that there is one God. Another issue with such a conclusion is that it denies a divine unity among the three persons of trinity and thus make the following verses meaningless, for ex
• John 14:9-10
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.
Also , Check--> https://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html
//The Bible indicates that all three Persons of the Trinity were involved in Jesus’ resurrection thus again showing a tremendous unity among the three persons.
• Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle — sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and *God the Father, who raised him* from the dead —
• Romans 8:11
And if the *Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead* is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
• John 10:17-18
The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. *I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again*. This command I received from my Father.”
• Isaiah 48:11
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another.
//If God the Father says this then the following verse because meaningless until and unless Father and the son who though are fully God are divinely United to each other as only One God.
• John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
//Lastly if it's true that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three different individual separate Gods then why Bible says that There is only One God and secondly why these three persons seem to be in Harmony with each other in their actions and also God the son being subordinate to Father and God the Holy Spirit being subordinate to both Father and Son and hence divinely and mysteriously acting as one Being and One God.
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3. Now, in the third case, we have only two options- either to reject the trinity saying its obscure (or at best a contradiction) or just accept as it is on the basis of what the bible reveals about it.
Lastly, One thing I want to frankly admit is this: the most difficult part while explaining trinity to others is to explain that though the three persons of trinity are fully God but yet they are not three Gods but only One God. The only thing, I can do at last is to humble myself before the God, acknowledging that I cannot comprehend the infinite God fully with my limited knowledge, intellect and wisdom and hence rely on scriptures and believe whatever He has revealed about himself in the scriptures.
Now, let me remind you your own words
//The Trimurti is an artificial creation to reconcile different devotional paths. //
I want you to focus on your usage of the term 'reconcile' .
In simple words, the doctrine of TRINITY is nothing but an attempt to reconcile the above three non-deniable facts [1.God's plurality ie God is three (distinct) persons, 2.Each Person is Fully God 3.There is One God]. Though we can't fully understand trinity but at the same time we can't deny it either.
Now, tell me one thing what did you really mean when you said Trinity is not in the Bible.
Now, what I meant by saying *Yes, it is* is clear from the scriptures that I quoted above.
Lastly, I would say that if you want me to deny Trinity then either you debunk those three facts [1.God's plurality ie God is three (distinct) persons, 2.Each Person is Fully God 3.There is One God] or provide me an alternative explanation/interpretation which does justice with the scriptures I quoted, but please just don't say its irrational, rather its quite difficult to comprehend for our finite mind.
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PART 2 : A short response to your response to me.
//In the West, the creed says that the holy spirit proceeds from the father and the son (filioque) while in the eastern churches the holy spirit proceeds directly from the father. Right there, in our time, you have two versions.//
Sir, I don't care about east or west but I care about what the scriptures say.
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever —
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father — the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father — he will testify about me.
These Scriptures seem to indicate that the Spirit is sent out by both the Father and the Son. The essential matter in the filioque clause is a desire to protect the deity of the Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4).
Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of Jesus Christ and Spirit of God interchangeably.
Matthew 10:20
for it will not be you speaking, but the *Spirit of your Father* speaking through you.
Acts 16:7
When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the *Spirit of Jesus* would not allow them to.
Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the *Spirit of God* lives in you. And if anyone does not have the *Spirit of Christ*, they do not belong to Christ.
The terms Spirit *of* Father/Jesus and the fact that He is sent by both the Father and the Jesus doesn't belittle the deity of Holy Spirit rather it shows how Father, Son and Holy Spirit are United to each other as One God and they perform their actions in harmony with each other.
//It was the law under the Emperor Theodosius that all Roman citizens were required to follow the state version of Christian dogmas alone.//
I have two bible verses for this.
Acts 5:29
Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!"
Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
//Berean Jews accepted Christian beliefs not as dogmas but as being convinced by examining the scriptures.
God's Word, Bible is our final authority and not any emperor or man. If some so called *Christian* emperor says something contrary to the Word of God or makes the true doctrine of bible (eg Trinity) illegal by Law even then we Christians (even if we were roman citizens) are not bound to follow or approve of it. That's the reason why true Christians were still persecuted in the Church History.
There is nothing *Christian* in it if someone is forcing Christianity or it beliefs on other people through law, power or money.
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PART 3: A short response to the Article you shared.
//........// -> Quote from the Article
**..........** -> My Response
1. Introduction
** In this section, it is extensively discussed/speculated whether the Christian doctrine of Trinity had non-Christian origins. What I have to say is this: The three Facts ie 1.God's plurality ie God is three (distinct) persons, 2.Each Person is Fully God 3.There is One God. -> are biblically grounded/backed by strong scriptural proofs and thus is not an artificial creation influenced by other philosophies. Now, It may happen that while explaining these three facts of the scriptures in simple understandable terms or in attempt to simplify and make sense of it , theologians of early Church may have been influenced by concepts (which sounded like trinity) of other ancient philosophies but as the article itself affirms
**
//However, similarity alone doesn’t prove Christian copying or even indirect influence, and many of these examples are, because of their time and place,unlikely to have influenced the development of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.//
And
//But even if the doctrine had a non-Christian origin, it would would not follow that it is false
or unjustified; it could be, that through Philo (or whomever), God revealed the doctrine to the Christian church. //
2. Christian Bible
2.1 The Old Testament
//No trinitarian doctrine is explicitly taught in the Old Testament.//
** But God's plurality and God's oneness is clearly taught, as I showed in PART 1 **
2.2 The New Testament
//The New Testament contains no explicit trinitarian doctrine.//
** But three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are clearly called God in N.T , all three Persons of the Trinity were involved in Jesus’ resurrection as taught in N.T implying oneness/unity of these three persons, it is clearly taught that there is One God even in the N.T , all the three persons are extensively mentioned even in just one verse in many places thus clearly showing the distinctness of these three persons **
//Many Christian apologists argue that the doctrine of the Trinity is “biblical” (i.e. either it is implicitly taught there, or it is the best explanation of what is taught there) using three sorts of arguments.//
** But surprisingly the article fails to mention that along with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are also clearly called God in the N.T. The article though accepts the deductive validity of those three arguments, but raises questions on definition of the term *fully divine*. Fully divine should simply be understood as fully God as I have used earlier. **
//A number of well developed refutations of these arguments dating from the 17th to 19th centuries have been largely forgotten by present-day theologians, philosophers, and apologists//
** I would really appreciate if you could bring those " well developed refutations " **
3. Development of Creeds
** Again I would like to remind you that those three facts [1.God's plurality ie God is three (distinct) persons, 2.Each Person is Fully God 3.There is One God]. were not developed rather misunderstood at times but the only type of development especially regarding the trinity that took place in the early Church history was only in the comprehension and formulation part of trinity. Church Fathers though played an important role but again they are not infallible but only the scriptures which is our final authority just like the Berian Jews of Acts 17:11. The Creeds only affirmed what the New Testament authors already believed and wrote and those creeds were not made, rather they were rediscovered upon the careful examination of scriptures.
4. Medieval Theories
5. Post-Medieval Development's
** Similar Thoughts as above, nothing much to say **
Final Thoughts
● I really appreciate that you shared the article. Got to know new things and new insights. It was a very long article though...
● Christians like me are majorly concerned with what the Bible says. Bible is our final authority.
● If someone brings objections against Christianity by saying like-> this group or that group (of "Christians") said this or said that or did this or did that, then it would hardly bother us unless and until whatever that group said or did is supposed to be backed by scriptures and hence supposed to be really problematic for Christianity.
I will recommend you to read this book on trinity https://www.pdfdrive.com/
And then decide for yourself whether Trinity is in the Bible or not.
Topic of the Trinity is in Chapter 14, pages 272 to 317.
• Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle — sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and *God the Father, who raised him* from the dead —
• Romans 8:11
And if the *Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead* is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
• John 10:17-18
The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. *I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again*. This command I received from my Father.”
• Isaiah 48:11
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another.
//If God the Father says this then the following verse because meaningless until and unless Father and the son who though are fully God are divinely United to each other as only One God.
• John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
//Lastly if it's true that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three different individual separate Gods then why Bible says that There is only One God and secondly why these three persons seem to be in Harmony with each other in their actions and also God the son being subordinate to Father and God the Holy Spirit being subordinate to both Father and Son and hence divinely and mysteriously acting as one Being and One God.
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3. Now, in the third case, we have only two options- either to reject the trinity saying its obscure (or at best a contradiction) or just accept as it is on the basis of what the bible reveals about it.
Lastly, One thing I want to frankly admit is this: the most difficult part while explaining trinity to others is to explain that though the three persons of trinity are fully God but yet they are not three Gods but only One God. The only thing, I can do at last is to humble myself before the God, acknowledging that I cannot comprehend the infinite God fully with my limited knowledge, intellect and wisdom and hence rely on scriptures and believe whatever He has revealed about himself in the scriptures.
Now, let me remind you your own words
//The Trimurti is an artificial creation to reconcile different devotional paths. //
I want you to focus on your usage of the term 'reconcile' .
In simple words, the doctrine of TRINITY is nothing but an attempt to reconcile the above three non-deniable facts [1.God's plurality ie God is three (distinct) persons, 2.Each Person is Fully God 3.There is One God]. Though we can't fully understand trinity but at the same time we can't deny it either.
Now, tell me one thing what did you really mean when you said Trinity is not in the Bible.
Now, what I meant by saying *Yes, it is* is clear from the scriptures that I quoted above.
Lastly, I would say that if you want me to deny Trinity then either you debunk those three facts [1.God's plurality ie God is three (distinct) persons, 2.Each Person is Fully God 3.There is One God] or provide me an alternative explanation/interpretation which does justice with the scriptures I quoted, but please just don't say its irrational, rather its quite difficult to comprehend for our finite mind.
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PART 2 : A short response to your response to me.
//In the West, the creed says that the holy spirit proceeds from the father and the son (filioque) while in the eastern churches the holy spirit proceeds directly from the father. Right there, in our time, you have two versions.//
Sir, I don't care about east or west but I care about what the scriptures say.
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever —
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father — the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father — he will testify about me.
These Scriptures seem to indicate that the Spirit is sent out by both the Father and the Son. The essential matter in the filioque clause is a desire to protect the deity of the Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4).
Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of Jesus Christ and Spirit of God interchangeably.
Matthew 10:20
for it will not be you speaking, but the *Spirit of your Father* speaking through you.
Acts 16:7
When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the *Spirit of Jesus* would not allow them to.
Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the *Spirit of God* lives in you. And if anyone does not have the *Spirit of Christ*, they do not belong to Christ.
The terms Spirit *of* Father/Jesus and the fact that He is sent by both the Father and the Jesus doesn't belittle the deity of Holy Spirit rather it shows how Father, Son and Holy Spirit are United to each other as One God and they perform their actions in harmony with each other.
//It was the law under the Emperor Theodosius that all Roman citizens were required to follow the state version of Christian dogmas alone.//
I have two bible verses for this.
Acts 5:29
Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!"
Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
//Berean Jews accepted Christian beliefs not as dogmas but as being convinced by examining the scriptures.
God's Word, Bible is our final authority and not any emperor or man. If some so called *Christian* emperor says something contrary to the Word of God or makes the true doctrine of bible (eg Trinity) illegal by Law even then we Christians (even if we were roman citizens) are not bound to follow or approve of it. That's the reason why true Christians were still persecuted in the Church History.
There is nothing *Christian* in it if someone is forcing Christianity or it beliefs on other people through law, power or money.
9
PART 3: A short response to the Article you shared.
//........// -> Quote from the Article
**..........** -> My Response
1. Introduction
** In this section, it is extensively discussed/speculated whether the Christian doctrine of Trinity had non-Christian origins. What I have to say is this: The three Facts ie 1.God's plurality ie God is three (distinct) persons, 2.Each Person is Fully God 3.There is One God. -> are biblically grounded/backed by strong scriptural proofs and thus is not an artificial creation influenced by other philosophies. Now, It may happen that while explaining these three facts of the scriptures in simple understandable terms or in attempt to simplify and make sense of it , theologians of early Church may have been influenced by concepts (which sounded like trinity) of other ancient philosophies but as the article itself affirms
//However, similarity alone doesn’t prove Christian copying or even indirect influence, and many of these examples are, because of their time and place,unlikely to have influenced the development of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.//
And
//But even if the doctrine had a non-Christian origin, it would would not follow that it is false
or unjustified; it could be, that through Philo (or whomever), God revealed the doctrine to the Christian church. //
2. Christian Bible
2.1 The Old Testament
//No trinitarian doctrine is explicitly taught in the Old Testament.//
** But God's plurality and God's oneness is clearly taught, as I showed in PART 1 **
2.2 The New Testament
//The New Testament contains no explicit trinitarian doctrine.//
** But three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are clearly called God in N.T , all three Persons of the Trinity were involved in Jesus’ resurrection as taught in N.T implying oneness/unity of these three persons, it is clearly taught that there is One God even in the N.T , all the three persons are extensively mentioned even in just one verse in many places thus clearly showing the distinctness of these three persons **
//Many Christian apologists argue that the doctrine of the Trinity is “biblical” (i.e. either it is implicitly taught there, or it is the best explanation of what is taught there) using three sorts of arguments.//
** But surprisingly the article fails to mention that along with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are also clearly called God in the N.T. The article though accepts the deductive validity of those three arguments, but raises questions on definition of the term *fully divine*. Fully divine should simply be understood as fully God as I have used earlier. **
//A number of well developed refutations of these arguments dating from the 17th to 19th centuries have been largely forgotten by present-day theologians, philosophers, and apologists//
** I would really appreciate if you could bring those " well developed refutations " **
3. Development of Creeds
** Again I would like to remind you that those three facts [1.God's plurality ie God is three (distinct) persons, 2.Each Person is Fully God 3.There is One God]. were not developed rather misunderstood at times but the only type of development especially regarding the trinity that took place in the early Church history was only in the comprehension and formulation part of trinity. Church Fathers though played an important role but again they are not infallible but only the scriptures which is our final authority just like the Berian Jews of Acts 17:11. The Creeds only affirmed what the New Testament authors already believed and wrote and those creeds were not made, rather they were rediscovered upon the careful examination of scriptures.
4. Medieval Theories
5. Post-Medieval Development's
** Similar Thoughts as above, nothing much to say **
Final Thoughts
● I really appreciate that you shared the article. Got to know new things and new insights. It was a very long article though...
● Christians like me are majorly concerned with what the Bible says. Bible is our final authority.
● If someone brings objections against Christianity by saying like-> this group or that group (of "Christians") said this or said that or did this or did that, then it would hardly bother us unless and until whatever that group said or did is supposed to be backed by scriptures and hence supposed to be really problematic for Christianity.
I will recommend you to read this book on trinity https://www.pdfdrive.com/
And then decide for yourself whether Trinity is in the Bible or not.
Topic of the Trinity is in Chapter 14, pages 272 to 317.
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